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daydreamer -



Quote:

I can think of to explain the Chinese r to an English speaker is:
it's between the English r (as in round) and the French j (as in Jaques).

Thanks, I think it's useful. I found lots of English speakers can speak a lot or a little French.
I'm going to try it soon, and will tell you the result.




Quote:

As to the shi/si-thing: don't people in your city differ between shi2 and si4 by tone? Even if
they say si instead of shi for 10, there is still the difference between si2 (10) and si4 (4).
This is hard to hear for a foreigner, but it does show how important tones are.

Yes They do. but the bigest problem is, recognizing between 2nd tone and 4th tone is one of the
hardest part for him....



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leosmith -

The way I found r was to make the english 'er' sound, then push my tongue closer to the roof of my
mouth. Don't actually let it touch the roof, and keep the air flowing above it. It takes some
tongue adjustment and relaxation, but that seem to be it.

Here's another question - when a syllable has no initial, is it pronounced higher? The table I'm
using
http://lost-theory.org/chinese/phonetics/
pronounces the 'a' higher than 'ba', for example.










daydreamer -



Quote:

I can think of to explain the Chinese r to an English speaker is:
it's between the English r (as in round) and the French j (as in Jaques).

Yes this is very useful I tried two English speakers, they all success!










HashiriKata -



Quote:


Originally Posted by leosmith

Here's another question - when a syllable has no initial, is it pronounced higher?


I don't think so. I think the samples you referred to happened to be recorded at different times
when the reader happened to be in a different states of excitement










owen -



Quote:

zai can be described as "tzai" - because it's voiceless but unaspirated (compared to cai - tshai).
Of course, both consonants should be pronounced together.

Wouldn't a better description be "dzai" as 'd' is voiceless and unaspirated whereas 't' is
voiceless but aspirated?










atitarev -

My Quote


Quote:

zai can be described as "tzai" - because it's voiceless but unaspirated (compared to cai - tshai).
Of course, both consonants should be pronounced together.

Your Quote:


Quote:

Wouldn't a better description be "dzai" as 'd' is voiceless and unaspirated whereas 't' is
voiceless but aspirated?

Owen, how do you render that the initial "z" is voiceless? For "cai" you can have "tsai", for
"zai" - "tzai". Better still, leave pinyin as it is and explain what the sounds are like, which is
the usual method. Describing one language sounds with the letters of another is always a problem.










owen -



Quote:

Describing one language sounds with the letters of another is always a problem.

I agree. But i still think "dzai" is a lot more intuitive and phonetically accurate due to the
simple fact that when an english speaker sees a 't' at the beginning of a word they are going to
aspirate.
What do you mean when you say the initial 'z' is voiceless? Certainly not to my ears and mouth.










leosmith -



Quote:

z [ts] unaspirated c (halfway between beds and bets), (more common example is suds)

(from wikipedia)



Quote:

I don't think so. I think the samples you referred to happened to be recorded at different times
when the reader happened to be in a different states of excitement

Heh heh, thanks HashiriKata. Maybe he sat on a feather?










atitarev -



Quote:

What do you mean when you say the initial 'z' is voiceless? Certainly not to my ears and mouth.

I was going to explain but this site will do it better than me:

Search for the string (under Consonants):


Quote:

There are no voiced consonants in Chinese.

http://olimu.com/Notes/ChinesePronunciation.htm
Don't be affected by pinyin, Wade-Giles system reflects better the difference between Chinese
consonants (also in the above site) in that respect. I prefer hanyu pinyin still.










daydreamer -

I just found that when you pronouce "z", pronouce it as "dz" and at the meanwhile make your tongue
touch the bottom teeth, that sound alright.












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