Learn mandarin - 郑州话 - Page 2 -

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郑州话
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libertango -

i know some younger kids in zhengzhou are constantly saying "哦是这" with the feeling that
something they just witnessed is really cool or crazy. i dont know if this is zhengzhou, or just
some young kid slang...

i really miss zhengzhou 烩面. i can't eat noodles in beijing after living in zhengzhou.



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Learning Chinese - Nothing to be eat ?? -

> Extras > Other cultures and language
Nothing to be eat ??
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skylee -

As I said on the "What are you reading" thread I am reading (re-reading, actually) Jane Austen's
Persuasion. The book I have is a Penguin Classics. And I have a question. Take a look at this
picture ->



I wrote that question mark the first time I read it. My question is whether "nothing to be eat" is
acceptable (or was acceptable at that time) or it is simply an error. I have read some on-line
version (Gutenberg for example) and it is "nothing to eat". I have no problem with "stopt" or
"teaze" but I find this strange.

One more question. How do you address your father's cousin? Is he your uncle or your cousin? In
this book Charles No. 1 and Charles No. 2 are cousins (their mothers are sisters). Walter is
Charles No.1's son. How should Walter call Charles No. 2?



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wai ming -

I'm no expert on the matter, but if it had read "There being nothing to be eaten", it would be
more acceptable, in my opinion. It certainly sounds strange as "There being nothing to be eat",
even for the style of language used at that time.

Unfortunately I've never read Persuasion, so I can't comment on any other versions










Nibble -

I think it's a typo. It should be either "There being nothing to be eaten" or "There being nothing
to eat," and the latter sounds much more natural to me.












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Chinese Class - Visa questions?????? "L" and "D" -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China
Visa questions?????? "L" and "D"
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nitropuppy -

I thought I had the chinese visa situation all figured out. Now, I've read some things that negate
my preconceptions. Can anyone answer these few (seemingly) easy questions?
I have heard of the "L" tourist visa. I thought this was good for only thirty days inside China.
Now, I'm reading about multi-entry "L" visa's with extensions on stay in China. Extensions up to
90 days. But, I'm reading vague reasons as to why and where you can get these
Even the chinese consulate web-site is vague on the issue. It mentioned something about requesting
a 60 day extension.I'll be using the New York consulate in the near future.
How difficult is getting a tourist visa which allows a person to stay in China for 90 days?
Does the 90 day "L" visa let you stay in China during those 90 days? Or does a person need to exit
the country every thirty days and come back in on the issued multi-entry visa? (I can see that
getting costly)

Also, what's the deal on the "D" visa? If I'm married to a chinese citizen, do I apply for this
visa so I can live in China for a few years? I'm just trying to figure out a way to spend two
years in China with my wife. I want to live there with her while we work on her U.S. visa. Which
will most likely will take two years to get. How do I accomplish this without racking up huge
bills and frequent flier miles by going in and out of Hong Kong every thirty days?



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liuzhou -

You have to have been married for five years before you are entitled to a D visa. Also, they
remain scarce and few cities can issue them.

You can renew an L in China without leaving. If you are just a tourist they let you renew once
only (usually for another 30 days), but if you are visiting a relative (including wife!) you can
renew twice, giving you 90 days. I have done this in the past.










lucha -

I came in China with a multi entry 6 months tourist visa， but each stay cannot exceed 3 months.
I have to exit the country after 3 months. When I applied for the visa，I saw they also have
1-year tourist visa.
Also，I have a friend who is married to a Chinese guy and she is on a 1-year tourist visa
too，the reason she gave is “staying with her Chinese husband“.










nitropuppy -

So, can I assume that I can get a new "L" visa in Hong Kong, after my first "L" visa 90 days is
expired? Is there a limit to how many "L" visa's a person can do in a year? It looks like I will
need to fly from Chengdu to Hong Kong four times a year? This is going to get costly. Is there no
other way other than using my TESL certificate to teach english, to stay in China???










smalldog -

If your wife is Chinese you can apply for a 1 year L visa. You can apply for this at a Chinese
embassy/consulate or you can arrive on a normal L visa and get a 1 year extension in your wife's
place of residence. Normal L visas can usually only be extended a couple of times, but there is no
limit for the spouse of a Chinese.

Note that you are technically not allowed to work on an L visa -- to be legal you need to get a Z
visa through your employer.










quanxie -

Visa ofr US cititzens jave been a BIG hassle since the forming of the Homeland security gustopho...

In the US you can easily het a 60 day L tourist visa, then one extension in China for 30 days..
Also last time I checked, any visa issued in the US, no matter how long the visa is good form you
MUST exit the country and re-enter every 60 days.... I have never heard of the 1 year L visa so
maybe it will work... (make sure the duration of stay is 1 year also...

If that plan fails, then you can fly to HK and then purchase a 6 Month F business visa...Until
last month you could get a 1 year but, I heard that a 6 month F is all any countries citizen can
be issued now...










liuzhou -



Quote:

It looks like I will need to fly from Chengdu to Hong Kong four times a year?

Why?

As I said, you can renew the visa in China.










nitropuppy -

Well, I hope "smalldog" is correct. That sounds like an answer. I just hope the 1year "L" visa is
a valid thing. (not that I doubt you smalldog) It's just that I have not read of that anywhere.
The issue is this. We're not married yet. I plan to marry her in China. Also, I want to learn the
language (so I'll know when she's swearing at me) , and get to understand her culture. Putting all
the documents together and getting through the burearacracy to get officially married, will take
at least 60 days. Then I am assuming I can fly to Hong Kong and get the 1 year "L" visa as a
spouse. Sound about right?.......

And yes, I know I can't work on a "L" visa. I'm qualified to teach english but I need to put time
every week into my business. Which is in the "States". Perhaps, I might teach part time just to
contribute to my host society. But, I'm not ready to commit a large block of my time on a
contract. Not yet anyhow. Thanks for all your help. This forum has been very helpful on many
issues. When I'm a more informed veteran of China, perhaps I can return the favor to others.










liuzhou -



Quote:

so I'll know when she's swearing at me

You have a lot to learn! Chinese wives always have a few back-up dialects which you don't know!
They use these to swear at you and talk about you with their friends in front of you!



Good luck!










Pengyou -

I just called the Forever Bright Travel Agency in Hong Kong. They said that it is not possible to
issue a visa to a U.S. citizen to allow him/her to stay in China for 6 months at a time. Is this
true? Are there some loopholes? The first visas on my passport were student visas. I now have a
business license in the U.S. I got an invitation letter from a Chinese company to come here in
July - a 2 month F visa. I had it extended for 2 months - another F visa without leaving the
country - via another organization in China. My visa expires on 11/7

Any suggestions? Does anyone know of a reputable person standing on the corner wearing a trench
coat that can take care of this?

It is so frustrating because there is so much conflicting information.












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Chinese Mandarin - Non-Chinese Cantonese speakers - Page 2 -

> Learning Chinese > Non-Mandarin Chinese
Non-Chinese Cantonese speakers
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roddy -



Quote:

How more racist one can get?

Hang people from trees? Force their kids to go to different schools? Not allow them to vote?
There's a few thoughts.



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Quest -

I think it's just so much rarer to see a Cantonese speaking caucasian, and honestly I have never
seen/met/heard a caucasian who speaks Cantonese as well as Sharon Balcombe. I've seen/heard many
non-Chinese but fluent Cantonese speakers, but never one that could speak it flawlessly like Mrs.
Lau. even if they were born in HK. People complain that HK people dont talk to them in Cantonese,
but if they spoke Cantonese like Sharon Balcombe, I think it would be hard not to speak to them in
Cantonese. She sounds culturally, linguistically, totally Cantonese... my mind's still fighting
hard, trying to force an accent on her, but so far failing to find even the slightest hint of
foreigness in her accent.

Sorry, I missed the Indian mother and daughter, they are 100% too, just like Sharon, the daugther
slightly more so. The mother has a bit(0.1%) of country accent.










Ian_Lee -

What is so strange about Caucasian speaking Cantonese?

When I was a kid in 1950s, my neighbor was a family of Britons whose kid spoke perfect Cantonese
(including all the 4-letter words). Their parents could all speak Cantonese, though not as fluent
as their son. But in average, their Cantonese were all much better than my other two neighbors --
Shandongese and Shanghaiese.

Nowadays if you go to the market in Hong Kong, most Filipino/Indonesian maids bargain in Cantonese
with those vendors.










Quest -

Ian_Lee, does your Cantonese have accent? I vaguely remember you said it does? Bauer, who you said
had very good Cantonese, does not really... not orally at least. He's okay, but easily detectable
as foreign.










Ian_Lee -

Quest:

Without comparison, Robert Bauer speaks quite good Cantonese. But of course, he is below average
after you compare all the videos.

Actually I prefer the Harilela most. They spoke unambigously, precisely and clearly. Of course,
they spoke with an accent. But accent is not the point since we (you and I) also speak English
with an accent. The most important point is that you can convey your idea accurately. Just like
Kissinger speaks English, everybody can tell that is not his native tongue but he can convey his
idea to us.

For Balcombe, I am not curious on her accentless since she is just like my neighbor kid -- 100%
native.

In terms of fluency, of course it is the Aussie/New Zealand girl who excels.

Though my father is a Chaozhouese, I speak Cantonese with HK accent -- a lot of "lazy sound".
However, I tell my kid not to learn the horrible Zhongshan-accented Cantonese that her classmate
speaks.










Quest -

I think the Australian girl also was born and raised in HK, but her parents kept her home, she was
a homeschooler, that's why she doesn't really know how to read chinese, and she still has a tiny
bit of an accent.










wannabeafreak -

Quest, how do you rate 河國榮 compared to the above people?


Thanks.










Quest -



Quote:

Quest, how do you rate 河國榮 compared to the above people?

I'd like to change my rating for the Indians (the men), they are actually more fluent than Cecilie
and Bauer. So maybe 75 for the Indian men. I think 河國榮's fluency is like theirs but with a
different accent, so maybe 75-80. Do you have a video of him speaking for a lengthy period of
time, I've only seen him in tvb drama.

Best first:
Sharon Balcombe (native)
Indian Daughter (native)
Indian Mother (native but with slight Indian/乡下话 characteristics)
Aus Girl (near native, miss a tone or two occasionally, fluency slightly worse than the above 3,
she uses 系呀，系嘞 too much)
(some distance)
河國榮 (fluent, but accent is foreign)
Indian Richmen (fluent, accent has heavy 乡下话 characteristics)
(some small distance)
Bauer (relatively fluent, accent foreign)
Cecilie (relatively fluent, accent foreign)










wannabeafreak -

Here is 河國榮 Ho Kwok Wing.

I have cut out all the advertisements and music.

Here is the entire interview:

PART 1: http://cantonese.hk/hkw/hkw-01.mp3 (1.97mb)
PART 2: http://cantonese.hk/hkw/hkw-02.mp3 (648kb)
PART 3: http://cantonese.hk/hkw/hkw-03.mp3 (296kb)
PART 4: http://cantonese.hk/hkw/hkw-04.mp3 (874kb)
PART 5: http://cantonese.hk/hkw/hkw-05.mp3 (992kb)



Please let me know how good you reckon he is compared to the above people. In terms of accent,
fluency etc. He is my idol.

Thanks










carlo -

sorry Quest, I'm curious about the 乡下话 accent. Are you saying that these people sound like
native speakers but with a non-'standard', yet non-'foreign', accent? Is it like, I don't know,
the way Blacks in American movies speak compared to Bostonian WASPs? If so, shouldn't their accent
be considered as native as that of the others, albeit of a non-standard variety? (My Cantonese
wouldn't make it to 5 on that scale, so I have to ask.












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Speak Chinese - Hakka slang and terminology help -

> Learning Chinese > Non-Mandarin Chinese
Hakka slang and terminology help
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Mavericker -

Hello. I'm interesd in Hakka, and I'm doing research on Hakka slang and terminology.

I'd like to know, what are the Hakka slang terms for:

brat-mischievous child
hoodlum
punk
troublemaker
first-rater (striking or impressive person or thing)

Please let me know. Thank you.



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冷清 -

I want to help but I have no idea about Hakka










geek_frappa -

there is a hakka cedict being developed.

http://uk.geocities.com/cedict_h/hced/h-index.html
this is very very cool IMHO...












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Speak Chinese - basic pronunciation questions - Page 3 -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
basic pronunciation questions
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daydreamer -



Quote:

I can think of to explain the Chinese r to an English speaker is:
it's between the English r (as in round) and the French j (as in Jaques).

Thanks, I think it's useful. I found lots of English speakers can speak a lot or a little French.
I'm going to try it soon, and will tell you the result.




Quote:

As to the shi/si-thing: don't people in your city differ between shi2 and si4 by tone? Even if
they say si instead of shi for 10, there is still the difference between si2 (10) and si4 (4).
This is hard to hear for a foreigner, but it does show how important tones are.

Yes They do. but the bigest problem is, recognizing between 2nd tone and 4th tone is one of the
hardest part for him....



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leosmith -

The way I found r was to make the english 'er' sound, then push my tongue closer to the roof of my
mouth. Don't actually let it touch the roof, and keep the air flowing above it. It takes some
tongue adjustment and relaxation, but that seem to be it.

Here's another question - when a syllable has no initial, is it pronounced higher? The table I'm
using
http://lost-theory.org/chinese/phonetics/
pronounces the 'a' higher than 'ba', for example.










daydreamer -



Quote:

I can think of to explain the Chinese r to an English speaker is:
it's between the English r (as in round) and the French j (as in Jaques).

Yes this is very useful I tried two English speakers, they all success!










HashiriKata -



Quote:


Originally Posted by leosmith

Here's another question - when a syllable has no initial, is it pronounced higher?


I don't think so. I think the samples you referred to happened to be recorded at different times
when the reader happened to be in a different states of excitement










owen -



Quote:

zai can be described as "tzai" - because it's voiceless but unaspirated (compared to cai - tshai).
Of course, both consonants should be pronounced together.

Wouldn't a better description be "dzai" as 'd' is voiceless and unaspirated whereas 't' is
voiceless but aspirated?










atitarev -

My Quote


Quote:

zai can be described as "tzai" - because it's voiceless but unaspirated (compared to cai - tshai).
Of course, both consonants should be pronounced together.

Your Quote:


Quote:

Wouldn't a better description be "dzai" as 'd' is voiceless and unaspirated whereas 't' is
voiceless but aspirated?

Owen, how do you render that the initial "z" is voiceless? For "cai" you can have "tsai", for
"zai" - "tzai". Better still, leave pinyin as it is and explain what the sounds are like, which is
the usual method. Describing one language sounds with the letters of another is always a problem.










owen -



Quote:

Describing one language sounds with the letters of another is always a problem.

I agree. But i still think "dzai" is a lot more intuitive and phonetically accurate due to the
simple fact that when an english speaker sees a 't' at the beginning of a word they are going to
aspirate.
What do you mean when you say the initial 'z' is voiceless? Certainly not to my ears and mouth.










leosmith -



Quote:

z [ts] unaspirated c (halfway between beds and bets), (more common example is suds)

(from wikipedia)



Quote:

I don't think so. I think the samples you referred to happened to be recorded at different times
when the reader happened to be in a different states of excitement

Heh heh, thanks HashiriKata. Maybe he sat on a feather?










atitarev -



Quote:

What do you mean when you say the initial 'z' is voiceless? Certainly not to my ears and mouth.

I was going to explain but this site will do it better than me:

Search for the string (under Consonants):


Quote:

There are no voiced consonants in Chinese.

http://olimu.com/Notes/ChinesePronunciation.htm
Don't be affected by pinyin, Wade-Giles system reflects better the difference between Chinese
consonants (also in the above site) in that respect. I prefer hanyu pinyin still.










daydreamer -

I just found that when you pronouce "z", pronouce it as "dz" and at the meanwhile make your tongue
touch the bottom teeth, that sound alright.












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Free Chinese Lesson - Foreign words/names trasnliteration/pronunciation in Chinese - any changes needed? -

> Extras > Other cultures and language
Foreign words/names trasnliteration/pronunciation in Chinese - any changes needed?
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View Poll Results: Foreign words/names transliteration/pronunciation in Chinese
Leave it as it is now. I don't want any changes. Please comment. 3 50.00%
Need a new script (somewhat like Japanese kana, Korean Hangul). Please comment. 1 16.67%
Write foreign names in Roman scripts or provide pronunciation in Roman letters. Please comment. 3 5
0.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll



Page 1 of 4 1 23 > »






atitarev -

Hi all,

I heard different opinions about foreign words/names transliteration/pronunciation in Chinese -
learners and natives. Is everyone happy with the status quo? That is, transliterating foreign
words into Chinese using Chinese characters somewhat reminding the original pronunciation and
adjusting to make it sound or mean better?

Issues with this approach are well-known, names become unrecognisable. It's probably OK for
well-known names.

Our Chinese teacher mentioned that foreign names are often written in 2 versions - Chinese
characters and Roman in brackets to show the pronunciation and the original spelling.

Questions:
1) Do you think this needs to be reformed or should it stay unchanged? Which method is needed?
a) New phonetic characters or diacritics to show missing sounds/combinations.
b) borrow and adjust characters to Mandarin from another language/script - Japanese, Korean,
English, etc.
c) No change but provide Roman/other scripts spelling next to the Chinese characters.
2) If you're against the reform (note: I am NOT suggesting to reform Chinese language but the
methods to render some foreign words.
3) Do you think Chinese people need to learn to pronounce SOME sounds/combinations that don't
exist in Chinese, V, R, etc. I had a discussion with Japanese people about their phonetical system
an dif they are happy with it. A few languages borrowed foreign sounds that didn't exist in their
language, a good example is German.

Please don't overreact, by no means I don't want to offend Chinese culture and I like Chinese
language and its writing system.

The vote allows multiple choices. I selected the bottom 2, as I think something needs to change
but I'd like to see your opinion on this.



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wix -

Increased use of roman script is the best solution. It eliminates ambiguity and it accommodates
most of the world's languages.

It is not necessary to expect Chinese people to pronounce the words perfectly. Non-Chinese
speakers won't pronounce words written in pinyin perfectly either. However, the written form will
prevent confusion and when spoken it is more likely to be intelligible than words transliterated
using characters.










wushijiao -

Since most people can’t pronounce foreign names, and instead just pronounce them in a pinyinized
way, I say keep it as it is.










wix -



Quote:


Originally Posted by wushijiao

Since most people can’t pronounce foreign names, and instead just pronounce them in a pinyinized
way, I say keep it as it is.


Of course they pronounce them in a pinyinised way. They are just reading the characters.

For example, they will read 湯母克魯斯 as tangmu kelusi. However, if presented with Tom
Cruise instead, they might say something that more closely resembles the English pronunciation.










wushijiao -



Quote:

Of course they pronounce them in a pinyinised way. They are just reading the characters

.

Haha! I meant when you speak your name to them. For example, almost no one who has not studied
English can pronounce the name Bill. Try getting a 50 year-old man to say that name (I have many
times)! You'll settle for 比尔, or some sort of Chinese name sooner or later. Try saying names
like Hans Blix to Chinese people. You are as likely to get older Chinese to magically understand
final constonants as you are to get older Americans to start pronouncing tones in Chinese names.
It just doesn't register.


I suppose in a generation or so, when the majority of people will have had practice at pronouncing
foreign sounds, it might be easier to convert to another system.










Quest -

I suggest keeping the characters approach but standardizing what characters to use for what sound.
The only reason the roman alphabet would work better is because every country has some sort of
romanization in place for its names in order to communicate with the western world. But this is
not an intrinsic advantage of the roman alphabet, more to do with the status of English. Japanese
and Korean place names, for example, do not cause confusions in China.










gato -



Quote:

Japanese and Korean place names, for example, do not cause confusions in China.

Isn't that only true those city names that mutually agreed upon Chinese character names? But the
controversy over changing 汉城 to 首尓 (Seoul) shows that this isn't always going to be the
case.










atitarev -

Japanese and Korean names don't cause confusion as long as they are not pronounced, IMHO, well
almost. Shénhù (神户) has nothing in common with Kōbe (神戸) or Dàbǎn (大坂/大阪)
with Ōsaka (大阪)

Even if Osaka were rendered phonetically, there is no common character in Mandarin with KA
pronunciation used for foreign words, so it would be something like Ou-sa-jia. KA is not hard to
pronounce for a Mandarin speaker (there is KE, KAO, etc), should there be new characters created
for sound combinations non-existent in Mandarin?

EDIT: thanks Gato










gato -



Quote:

Even if Osaka were rendered phonetically, there is no character in Mandarin with KA pronunciation

You can try 欧萨卡. Kind of ugly, but that's how transliterations are, which is why most
foreigners and foreign companies in China take up a Chinese-sounding name instead.










Quest -

IMO, any method that would require adding sounds to the language should be avoided, because it
will never accomodate sounds of all the languages in the world. Keep it systematic, simple, and
local.












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